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fairplay wrote on Oct 17, 2009 2:17 PM:
Rianza...My comment was inspired by left brain thought, but not without feeling. Attempted negotiation is certainly acceptable, but lest remains, the existing agreement is in tact. I don't believe that the tribe should dictate how the city should be run. Not paying their bills is not a credible way to negotiate.
rianza wrote on Oct 7, 2009 10:22 AM:
Dear Fairplay,
Once again - I am NOT advocating that they "renig", default, or refuse to pay. Let's get that straight between us. And you are free to have an emotional position on this issue.
But if all of us are to survive this economic downturn - and the economic firestorm that has yet to arrive - we'd best set emotions aside, use our heads, and approach problems such as this with calm and intellect - not emotion. I urge the Tribe to open their books to the city of North Bend and work with city leaders to reach an amiacable solution, as an accord is in the best interest of everyone living in Coos Bay and North Bend - including yourself.
Once again - I am NOT advocating that they "renig", default, or refuse to pay. Let's get that straight between us. And you are free to have an emotional position on this issue.
But if all of us are to survive this economic downturn - and the economic firestorm that has yet to arrive - we'd best set emotions aside, use our heads, and approach problems such as this with calm and intellect - not emotion. I urge the Tribe to open their books to the city of North Bend and work with city leaders to reach an amiacable solution, as an accord is in the best interest of everyone living in Coos Bay and North Bend - including yourself.
fairplay wrote on Oct 6, 2009 6:18 PM:
To Rianza...I do hear you advocating that they renig on their word, in this case, their contract with the city, and not pay their bills. If they want to renogotiate their contract, they should do so in an appropriate manner, not refuse to pay their bills and expect continued services. I realize they are a major employer in this area, but does that give them a free hand to do as they wish? Not in my book! Maybe they think their employees should continue working without pay until they get management and whatever else settled?
babyboomer wrote on Oct 6, 2009 2:51 PM:
pignuts I totatly agree with mis-management. There are, as the saying goes "To many Chiefs not enough indians" Tribal members aren't even running the show, including Tribal council. The past couple years there has been a lot of hiring of people from gods knows where. I guess they are supposed to be highly intelligent business people. They are paid more than any tribal member would ever hope to make. They are worthless, they have been allowed to take over everything, I really don't think the council even knows whats going. The last couple years they seem as if they are robots.. Sense this this has happened the tribe as got nothing but negative input from the community. They need all new leaders. This tax thing should have never came to this. No matter what happens now there will always be bad blood and distrust among our neighbors. Guess how many tribal members are in upper management??????
rianza wrote on Oct 6, 2009 1:50 PM:
Dear Fairplay,
I'm not advocating that anyone not pay their bills, but let's face the facts: the Mill employs our friends and neighbors - and those people also have bills to pay. And the Mill happens to be one of a handful of area businesses that actively and consistently pulls millions of outside dollars to our towns - and they seem to be much better at this than our city leaders.
I just don't think one more corroding business on the waterfront and another few dozen unemployed is going to benefit anyone. Adults should be able to sit down and resolve what seems to be a relatively simple problem. It's not global warming, is it? But communication skills seem to be in short supply among our city leaders...
I'm not advocating that anyone not pay their bills, but let's face the facts: the Mill employs our friends and neighbors - and those people also have bills to pay. And the Mill happens to be one of a handful of area businesses that actively and consistently pulls millions of outside dollars to our towns - and they seem to be much better at this than our city leaders.
I just don't think one more corroding business on the waterfront and another few dozen unemployed is going to benefit anyone. Adults should be able to sit down and resolve what seems to be a relatively simple problem. It's not global warming, is it? But communication skills seem to be in short supply among our city leaders...
1313 wrote on Oct 6, 2009 9:28 AM:
If the Indians ever do anything with the old Coos Head Naval Base land they got up above Bastendorf Beach, I wonder if they will put in their own sewer and water (well maybe). That is a beautiful piece of land going to waste now for quite a while.
Common Sense wrote on Oct 6, 2009 9:01 AM:
More of the same from a Casino mentality.....want more & give back
less!!!
P.S. Shut the services off & make the Casino create their own services, then make the requirements rigid & expensive to get the Oregon state approvals, since this is next to the bay...
less!!!
P.S. Shut the services off & make the Casino create their own services, then make the requirements rigid & expensive to get the Oregon state approvals, since this is next to the bay...
sewersmllofmunee wrote on Oct 5, 2009 9:17 PM:
My company used to contract with a sanitary district to dig up and place a shut off valve on non paying customers sewer lines. We NEVER had to dig up a single one. This was 100% effective to get the customers to pay.
I say shut off The Casino's sewer.
I say shut off The Casino's sewer.
TruthTeller wrote on Oct 5, 2009 8:09 PM:
How's it an ufair deal after 15 years. Most of the time cost for services go up just like anything else. So are the Indians saying it's an unfair deal for NB not to get paid more money? Crooks.
gbldivmrk wrote on Oct 5, 2009 4:38 PM:
At the time (abt 1948-49) that the American Indians were given the opportunity to aquire U.S. citzenship they took an oath, in part, " That I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citzen." That act and oath should have negated all treties ever given to the Indians.
fairplay wrote on Oct 5, 2009 1:29 PM:
To Rianza...Most of us have been hit by a rough economy. People have lost their homes, jobs, and business. And others have come to terms with lessened income, etc. So, would YOU like to be an Advocate for ALL of US that have suffered the sagging economy, to avoid paying our bills.
rianza wrote on Oct 5, 2009 11:19 AM:
I know this may be a challenge for our testy city leaders, but folks had better sit down and work out an agreement with the Mill, because the economy isn't going to get measurably better anytime soon, there are too many state casinos and lotteries competing for fewer dollars, and neither city is doing anything measurable to boost our local economy. Add an ill-timed costly expansion and The Mill is in a precarious financial situation that will not be remedied any time soon, so kicking the horse while it's down will only hasten it's demise.
coquillian wrote on Oct 5, 2009 9:51 AM:
Coos Bay person, you are right the Sheriff's office may not come to your home but every time your police department arrests someone your CITY is using COUNTY services. When you drive on a COUNTY road your are using COUNTY services. Do you not understand that? You pay COUNTY tax, and ALL receive county services i.e. Roads, Clerks office, Assessor, Planning, etc. That is what I am getting at. Even if you never leave your house, you are served by the COUNTY Assessors office.
GLUTTON4PUNISHMENT wrote on Oct 5, 2009 9:41 AM:
Maybe they need to have their land taken away again so they'll play nice with us. And before anyone starts crying about that comment, keep in mind that indian tribes were extremely brutal at times to neighboring tribes, and would commonly enslave one another and take land long before the white man came. We just did a better job unfortunately. If they are considered a sovereign nation, then that is a dangerous thing to have within our borders. What's next for them? Diplomatic immunity?
club40 wrote on Oct 3, 2009 3:15 PM:
Where does everyone think these employees came from?.These are workers that were employed by the business owners in the bay area. Maybe local business would be better off without a casino, sucking money, employees, and city services off the people. I for one wouldn't miss the casino!
1313 wrote on Oct 3, 2009 1:52 PM:
Also 70 emergency calls in less than a year probably would have gotten any other business selling liquor closed down !!!!!
1313 wrote on Oct 3, 2009 1:49 PM:
No beautification of property is right, look at the end of property closer to North Bend. It looks awful. And the RV Park doesn't look very good either from 101. They spent money building a huge motel and neglected the beauty of the land around it. That motel uses a lot of services too....pay for them !!!!
fairplay wrote on Oct 2, 2009 1:58 PM:
This appears to be a power stuggle, and they are not in control, and need to pay their due and play by the rules. Their patrons must play by their rules, and can't negotiate their losses in the Casino after the fact. Simple...if you refuse to honor your word and don't want to play by the rules, get out.
NBMAN wrote on Oct 2, 2009 12:11 PM:
Bay Area: I'm a very savvy businessman and pay my bills. If I thought I was paying more then I should, I would renegotiate BUT I WOULD KEEP PAYING WHAT I AGREED TO PAY, until we came to a NEW agreement. Or I whould exspect there to be some kind of consequence, as the City is saying they will do. Shut off service if payment is not paid. Lived in NB for over 35 year and Loved every year. And have never been to the mill. :-)))
Dragonman wrote on Oct 1, 2009 8:52 PM:
This is crazy. We all know that the people that work there are our neighbors right? Not people from the Tribe. I’m not saying what they are doing is right, it is not. But we need to protect the people that work there. They are Coos Bay-North Bend citizens. No one from the tribe gets hurt if the police do not respond. If anything go after them where they are, going after the casino just hurts our neighbors that need to keep their jobs. No one from the Tribe is at the hotel!
Mr E wrote on Oct 1, 2009 1:56 PM:
The casino could have pushed for mediation BEFORE they decided to stop paying the bills. They could have looked to outside negotiators to assist both sides in striking a deal on a new contract.
The casino, instead, simply decided to stop paying. I'm sorry, but once that takes place, you've essentially lost your rights to complain about the unfair nature of existing contracts and PAST DUE BILLS when discussing essential services.
It wasn't that long ago that they constructed a rather large motel on their property... yet, they can't pay for essential services, or do the kinds of MASSIVE beautification projects along the highway that one may see at Seven Feathers (or other intelligently-run, profit-making casinos) in the state.
The casino, instead, simply decided to stop paying. I'm sorry, but once that takes place, you've essentially lost your rights to complain about the unfair nature of existing contracts and PAST DUE BILLS when discussing essential services.
It wasn't that long ago that they constructed a rather large motel on their property... yet, they can't pay for essential services, or do the kinds of MASSIVE beautification projects along the highway that one may see at Seven Feathers (or other intelligently-run, profit-making casinos) in the state.
dan milburn wrote on Sep 30, 2009 4:40 PM:
The only course of action that makes sense:
Instead of the court ruling "pay or no pay" - or "services or no serivices" - put the money into an escrow account and order arbitration of the contract. This is the real issue isn't it? The tribe should "modify" the original contract and submit it for approval. The money accumulates but the city can't have it unless it cooperates. Putting the money into escrow keeps the tribe from defaulting and shows good faith. The city and the tribe need a new contract. The old one is 15-years old and the whole economy has changed dramaticaly. The obvious take on the situation is that the city is more concerned with its own budget problems than negotiating a revised fair and equitable contract. They should be partners not adversaries. Who signs a contract that doesn't expire at some point and allow for situational changes?
Instead of the court ruling "pay or no pay" - or "services or no serivices" - put the money into an escrow account and order arbitration of the contract. This is the real issue isn't it? The tribe should "modify" the original contract and submit it for approval. The money accumulates but the city can't have it unless it cooperates. Putting the money into escrow keeps the tribe from defaulting and shows good faith. The city and the tribe need a new contract. The old one is 15-years old and the whole economy has changed dramaticaly. The obvious take on the situation is that the city is more concerned with its own budget problems than negotiating a revised fair and equitable contract. They should be partners not adversaries. Who signs a contract that doesn't expire at some point and allow for situational changes?
coos bay person wrote on Sep 30, 2009 3:24 PM:
Coquillian, I don't live in the city of Coos Bay or North Bend, but the sheriffs office does not repond as I don't live in North or South County. In the area I live I see more of a presents of the State police. Something happened in my neighborhood and the sheriffs dept was called and the person was told to call there insurance company. The problem with the sheriffs dept is the COUNTY COMMISIONERS doing, but I'm still a tax payer and I should be able to get police if I need them. So if the tribe doesn't pay there debt than I say shut there services off. Times are tough right now, but prices have gone up, so the price of the services the casino is receiving should be higher than what it was 15 years ago.
The City of North Bend has to pay there bills and it's more than just for the people they have working for them, so if you want to crunch numbers thing of the other things they have to pay for.
The City of North Bend has to pay there bills and it's more than just for the people they have working for them, so if you want to crunch numbers thing of the other things they have to pay for.
bigmommasdaddy wrote on Sep 30, 2009 2:06 PM:
The bottom line is the money is owed due to the agreed upon contract. The casino has the right to renegotiate the contract, but they can't just decide to stop paying.
As a local citizen, I will simply stop going to the casino untill they are in compliance with the law.
It seems to me the casino needs customers a lot more than the customers need the casino!
As a local citizen, I will simply stop going to the casino untill they are in compliance with the law.
It seems to me the casino needs customers a lot more than the customers need the casino!
CB Lifer wrote on Sep 30, 2009 12:11 PM:
OK, pay the past due bill. Anything coming up, do the escrow thing while re-negotiating. IF a settlement cannot be reached, take the money from the escrow account and build/create your own departments. Hey, my water gets shut off if I don't pay. What does the Casino do for this area anyway? Makes it poorer for the idiots that waste their money there. The casino's do NOT help our economy, they only help it get worse.
metoo! wrote on Sep 30, 2009 9:50 AM:
lets all go waste our money in one of their machines, the pretty flashing lights are so entertaining! I think gambling is for fools :) well unless the gambler has plenty of money, but still I think it's foolish.
JVW wrote on Sep 30, 2009 9:29 AM:
To Dan Milburn: Yours is the voice of reason in this dialogue - the only comment that, to me, makes sense and would offer a viable solution for the moment.
It is unfortunate that the "powers" probably don't read these comments as they are usually so negative and poorly written. Some of you should learn to use spell check (ENFORCE).
It is unfortunate that the "powers" probably don't read these comments as they are usually so negative and poorly written. Some of you should learn to use spell check (ENFORCE).
COQUILLIAN wrote on Sep 30, 2009 8:28 AM:
Dear City Dwellers,
Those who say, "I pay for Sheriff's Office services and I receive none." You are dead wrong. When a person is arrested in a city, they go to the COUNTY jail. When divorce papers need to be served the COUNTY civil deputys serve them. Unless you never have anything happen on a COUNTY road, deputys respond to calls on county roads involving CITY people.
Those who say, "I pay for Sheriff's Office services and I receive none." You are dead wrong. When a person is arrested in a city, they go to the COUNTY jail. When divorce papers need to be served the COUNTY civil deputys serve them. Unless you never have anything happen on a COUNTY road, deputys respond to calls on county roads involving CITY people.
Commando wrote on Sep 29, 2009 10:12 PM:
Here's the thing! The Tribe though a "sovereign nation" cant support themselves, they have to pay like the rest of us! I get ticked about my water bill too, but if I stop paying it, they are within their legal right to shut my water off, and they do it! Also, when have you ever seen a settlement get paid on FOREVER through the generations! Im personally tired of the discrimination! Move on PAY YOUR BILLS!
m00npenny wrote on Sep 29, 2009 7:17 PM:
If this is how they are going to abuse the Sovereignty that “we” agreed to, then it needs to be repealed. No sovereignty, no more free ride, no more anything. Gambling is illegal in Oregon, so the casinos would then be closed. Push it CEDCO, and the cities, counties, states and federal government could possibly consider just that. Your doing your tribal members no favor.
Citizen wrote on Sep 29, 2009 7:12 PM:
Pay the bill and keep three local families from having a bread winner without a job before the holidays. Pay the bill for services that everyone else pays for. Perhaps the principle that keeps the casino flush with money could be applied here. If I owe the casino a gambling debt what does the casino do? Or look at it this way... call 911 and maybe you'll get lucky. Flush the toilet and maybe hit the jackpot!
littleneck1 wrote on Sep 29, 2009 6:39 PM:
Mashantucket Pequot tribe payes the city of Mashantucket conn.$3.5 million a year to have a casino in thier town and they are not fighting over paying that fee and thier bond rating from the bank is down to CC what is the bond rating on the mill casino
does anyone think that the bank will not step in and pay for the police and fire or will the bank call the note in defalt and take the property
either way the city will win
does anyone think that the bank will not step in and pay for the police and fire or will the bank call the note in defalt and take the property
either way the city will win
CriticaLogic wrote on Sep 29, 2009 5:16 PM:
70 emergency calls!!!
Given the Mak's example, sounds like it's time to shut that dump down.
Given the Mak's example, sounds like it's time to shut that dump down.
coos bay person wrote on Sep 29, 2009 5:00 PM:
I live in Coos County and receive NO services from the Sheriffs Dept, but I pay my taxes. The casino is not paying for services but still getting them, well time to cut them off. Does the tribe pay for services to Charleston Fire Dept, if not they need to get there own fire dept. They want to be a soverign nation well than they should have all the services they need without depending on the cities of Coos Bay and North Bend. Why renegotiate my bill for services hasn't gone down, but up and it's a recession why should the tribe be any different they use a lot more services than the rest of us. I think the city of North Bend is probably not charging enough for services rendered. Go get them North Bend, I stand behind you.
lifetime Oregonian wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:34 PM:
I for one get sick and tired of the casino. they do not pay property taxs on the casino, and now they think that they are above paying for something that if anyone else didn't pay these commmentments the city would stop the services. I think that if they want to renigoiate there contract that is fine but they contract that was signed years ago is still in effect until then. I think it is time for the tribe to start living the american way like the rest of us. Fred Clauson LAKESIDE
GetaClue wrote on Sep 29, 2009 4:24 PM:
Let me see 70 emergency calls for $649,000.00 that is only $9,271.42 per call. What a bargin!!! If I were a business paying that much per call I would want a new deal to. It is time for government to get out of the way instead of thinking that 70 calls are worth $649,000.00. Now they might want a Gas Tax us all to get the money back. I wish i could tell Government where to put it too. Go Tribe Go!!!
Forgot wrote on Sep 29, 2009 3:07 PM:
So, native American Tribe:
Who's breaking treaties now? It seems you hypocrites in your "Sovereign Nation" have a problem with treaty breaking, so why is it ok for you to break one?
Sovereign? Handle your own domestic services and infrastructure then.
Who's breaking treaties now? It seems you hypocrites in your "Sovereign Nation" have a problem with treaty breaking, so why is it ok for you to break one?
Sovereign? Handle your own domestic services and infrastructure then.
kikilongbean wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:55 PM:
I'll bet Coos Bay is loving this - it gets the heat off of them for a change.
richard stroker wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:33 PM:
I'm sure if 911 is dialed they will still come, but this time The Mill and the reporting party will get a bill.
Bay Area wrote on Sep 29, 2009 2:22 PM:
NBMAN-
You say you run a business... So if your business had a contract with the city to pay X dollars each year in lieu of taxes, but in reality your taxes should be Y dollars - a much less amount, you would not want to renegotiate your contract? Not a very savvy businessman. It takes two to tango, the city is not a victim here.
You say you run a business... So if your business had a contract with the city to pay X dollars each year in lieu of taxes, but in reality your taxes should be Y dollars - a much less amount, you would not want to renegotiate your contract? Not a very savvy businessman. It takes two to tango, the city is not a victim here.
Local Lady wrote on Sep 29, 2009 1:22 PM:
And once again the great City of North Bend is handling another matter oh so diplomatically!!!
NBMAN wrote on Sep 29, 2009 1:01 PM:
Pay what you agreed to pay or build your own Fire and Police stations, sewage plant and hual in your water.
I pay more every year in taxes for these things.
I run a business and donate to the schools also but it dosn't give me the right to stop paying my taxes.
I pay more every year in taxes for these things.
I run a business and donate to the schools also but it dosn't give me the right to stop paying my taxes.
fairplay wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:58 PM:
Wah, Wah, Wah....Breach of Contract, simple and clear. If it is to be renogiated, then let them get together and see what happens, but in the meantime, theyr'e liable for the present agreement. Seems only fair, that if they refuse to pay, that services should be refused. Why shoud they get free services? Nobody else does. Is that not scare tactics and threatening by the tribe.
TJC wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:43 PM:
“We feel the city is attempting to enforce an agreement that is of questionable validity and that shutting off any services would be a violation of federal law and would potentially subject the City to substantial liability.”
I find it hard to believe that there is a federal law that says once you sign up for services, no one can take them away from you if you stop paying for them.
Also, why would they pay for this agreement for 15 years and then decide it is of "questionable validity"? Sounds like they're either trying to hold the city hostage to get a cheaper rate, or just extremely stupid.
I find it hard to believe that there is a federal law that says once you sign up for services, no one can take them away from you if you stop paying for them.
Also, why would they pay for this agreement for 15 years and then decide it is of "questionable validity"? Sounds like they're either trying to hold the city hostage to get a cheaper rate, or just extremely stupid.
tsunami wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:39 PM:
the psuedo tribe after 15 years claims the payments are unfair. b.s. they are outrageous. what a crock of crap. is their agreement with the state unfair too? wait till they renege on that one too. preposerous claims
chilly wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:39 PM:
like they couldnt have figured that out over the last 15 years... why is it they keep thinking they dont need to pay anything... i say cut the sewer.... it stinks in there anyway... cut all services to them, they can fend for themselves.
dan milburn wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:32 PM:
May I suggest something? Instead of the court ruling "pay or no pay" - or "services or no serivices" - put the money into an escrow account and order arbitration of the contract. This is the real issue isn't it? The tribe should "modify" the original contract and submit it for approval. The money accumulates but the city can't have it unless it cooperates. Putting the money into escrow keeps the tribe from defaulting and shows good faith. The city and the tribe need a new contract. The old one is 15-years old and the whole economy has changed dramaticaly. The obvious take on the situation is that the city is more concerned with its own budget problems than negotiating a revised fair and equitable contract. They should be partners not adversaries. Who signs a contract that doesn't expire at some point and allow for situational changes?
Pig Nuts wrote on Sep 29, 2009 12:19 PM:
The Tribe just needs to tell the truth.
They are playing games with their balance sheet. The best way to do business is by being honest. Unless of course they are circling the drain at a much faster rate than their acts of desperation state.
The tribe is making a mistake & is being ill advised by their representation.
Poor judgment is going to cost you more in the long run. Pay down your debt & buy the city out of your contract.
The odds are no longer in favor of the house. I will bet that the tribes management has yet to take a cut in pay.
They are playing games with their balance sheet. The best way to do business is by being honest. Unless of course they are circling the drain at a much faster rate than their acts of desperation state.
The tribe is making a mistake & is being ill advised by their representation.
Poor judgment is going to cost you more in the long run. Pay down your debt & buy the city out of your contract.
The odds are no longer in favor of the house. I will bet that the tribes management has yet to take a cut in pay.
NBMAN wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:24 AM:
When I bought my car I said I'd pay blank amount for five years, but now I am going to stop paying because I desided the deal was unfair and by the way I'm keeping my car :-) Tell me do I get to keep my car??
enforce wrote on Sep 29, 2009 11:18 AM:
It's about time we stop being intimidated by tribal B.S and make them realise they live in the U.S.A. there axe to grind is well over 100 years old we owe them nothing !!!!
CB Lifer wrote on Sep 29, 2009 10:52 AM:
It seems to me, that MY fair share has constantly gone up over the last 15 years. Why do I have to pay MY fair share for sewer & water....wait, I have a septic tank, but pay the "sur-charge" anyway. How is THAT fair? The police come when I need them, maybe I shouldn't need them so much. MY opinion, is the tribe makes a LOT of money on that casino, so they need to quit whining, suck it up like the rest of us, and pay your "fair share" no matter how unfair you think it is. I think MY fair share is unfair too.
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